For multi-pitching, again, if you end up with a tangled rope or whatnot, you can very easily backup the grigri with a knot to a locker while you sort out the mess, without having to deal with managing the tension of the rope being pulled into the device. Gri Gri is an assisted breaking belay device made by Petzl. Just get a GriGri. I doubt the gym would get its ass sued off, and I highly doubt that such a lawsuit would be successful. Reviews are that it feeds way better than a Grigri and is a bit cheaper. I'm actually intrigued by the BD ATC Pilot, anyone got miles on that yet? But I do use a grigri for top rope because it’s a lot easier. I find it very uncomfortable to belay at all with a GriGri. EDIT: I encourage people not to sport climb with belayers using an ATC. Yes, this is a bad belayer all around. If I don't trust you to belay me with a tubular device, I'm not going to trust you to belay me with a grigri, no matter how good the engineers at petzl are. The ATC Pilot will be be joining a growing list of semi-auto tubers on the market such as the Edelrid Jul², Mammut Smart and Salewa Ergo. I know none of us would think we would ever drop a rope, but what if it was a 200 pound rock? I would say that using an ATC is slightly more “risky” than using as assisted braking device, provided that both devices are being used properly, but that doesn’t mean that the ATC isn’t a perfectly fine, effective device. ), Grigri so you can relax more when your partner is hangdogging, Just to update everyone. I guess my concern was it's not an assisted breaking device. Just trying to keep climbers safe. Yes, all climbers should learn to give a safe belay with a GriGri. Remove the unsafe part of the system. Many gyms now require an assisted braking device for lead belaying, so maybe look into a cheaper one like the ATC Pilot or Mammut Smart. And yes we are scared of falling. Become comfortable with it. With this set up correctly for toprope belaying, if your second takes a fall, the device will lock, just like with a Grigri. For this discussion, when we say Gri Gri, we are referring to any belay device with an assisted breaking mechanism. Recently within the past two months I have gotten into top rope climbing and I can confidently climbing 5.11-5.11+ confidently in a gym setting. Presentación del asegurador ATC Pilot de Black Diamond en la Feria OutDoor Friedrichshafen 2016. Belay devices are experiencing a renaissance of sorts, with more innovative options on the market than ever. But don't be fooled into thinking it is entirely safe! I always tell people that I think climbing is a physical puzzle. Learn both well. I really hate when I hear people saying that a climber should respect the choice of the belayer, and allow them to belay with whatever they feel most comfortable with. Either is fine. So I have an ATC-XP I should have just gone with the guide . One of our friend IIRC got kicked in the face by a falling lead climber, and dropped his hand from the rope. If you’re used to belaying with an ATC, and still will outdoors, then the Edelrid Jul or the Black Diamond ATC Pilot offer the most similar slack feeding technique, but use assisted braking tech. This is the case for a variety of reasons. Plus on multipitch routes a gri gri is pretty heavy. Yes, it looks similar and it performs similarly, and Black Diamond isn’t claiming they invented the concept; the ATC-Pilot is just their take on it. New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast. There is no reason to use a tube anymore. If you have ever climbed in an indoor gym, you have most likely seen or used a Gri Gri.Indoor gyms usually opt to use Gri Gris because they are more dummy-proof than the ATC. I've been lead climbing indoors and outdoors for the past 4-5 years now, and have been getting experience in trad climbing for the last year. My gym gives members 15% off items in their store. As always in climbing, having redundant safety measures in your gear and practice is beneficial. I like it because I find it very easy to feed slack and provide an overall smooth belay in addition to being an assisted braking device. As with other assisted braking belay devices, the ATC Pilot is intended to make catching and holding falls easier than with a standard tube-style device. Bad belaying is dangerous. I think after this week I will have enough cash to take a look at the grigri. / Lead belay with Gri-gri vs ATC or Bug: New Topic Reply to Topic. Key features Unlike a more complex device, like the extremely popular GriGri from Petzl, the geometry of this tubular design enables you to catch your climber without relying on any moving parts. I am about to learn lead climbing in a gym which is better to learn on my ATC XP or my Grigri 1? You can easily rap on a single line, but lowering is usually preferred (most definitely at my local crags at least) so this would be fine. Overall, we found that while the ATC outperformed the GriGri in specific areas (such as weight and beginner use), the GriGri is overall the better system. The GriGri is a great choice, and probably the most widely used assisted braking belay device around. Look dude, when it comes down to it, a grigri is just a fancy tubular device, they can and have failed; bad belay technique with a grigri is just as dangerous as it is with a tubular device. People that say you have to use one or the other are just being ignorant. I also found that if I accidently let go of the Pilot while lowering a partner I would not lose control of the rope. It's the standard among my climbing group - mostly because it protects against worst case scenarios. Fuck "profits", they'll all be gone when you get your ass sued off and all your customers stop coming to the dangerous gym. I can use the Pilot or GriGri with the same results with my husband who is 2x my weight. Use a grigri. Yeah, I own a gri-gri, but feeding rope can be a bitch so I just use my reverso. The ATC Pilot weighs only 86g (making it one of the lightest assisted braking devices available) and it accepts ropes from 8.7–10.5mm in diameter, which accommodates most single ropes. Press J to jump to the feed. But, if there is a better option I would love to hear the discussion! Get rid or the shitty customers. Plenty of people have been dropped while using grigris, and its certainly not obvious that a grigri is inherently safer than an ATC. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. I like an ATC for belaying a leader just because it feeds smoother than a Grigri, Grigri for top rope, but I'll use either. Congrats on the fast progression! I bought a GriGri "3" today. I just picked up a Madrock Lifeguard to try out. Shoppers should recognize that none of the active assisted locking devices can rappel a doubled rope, nor can the passive ClickUp+, Black Diamond ATC Pilot, or Mammut Smart 2.0. Know what grinds my gears? Rock Climbin' Grandma. Your rant is silly. and allow them to belay with whatever they feel most comfortable with, Sure, force them to belay with something they're uncomfortable with, that'll make it much safer. Adding a higher level of security to your belay, the lightweight Black Diamond ATC Pilot belay device lends easy rope payout, which is less tiring for belayers and more secure for climbers. As someone who learned to lead belay using an ATC first, and who for a while felt much more comfortable using an ATC over a Grigri, all climbers should be more comfortable using a Grigri. Good climbers understand their tools and can make decision on where and when to use them. ‘Veilig zekeren bij sportklimmen’ – versie 02-02-2011. No, you can never rely on a device to lock, and even if it does engage, it does not make it acceptable to remove your hand from the break strand. did you arrest the fall or was it the device?). I just picked up a Madrock Lifeguard to try out. The Grigri2 is primarily an improvement over its predecessor as climbing equipment technology and climber's needs evolve. Additionally, many climbers (and beginners are naturally at greater risk) don’t have the mechanical aptitude to identify and mitigate possible problems in a technical scenario as complex as the operation of a Grigri. The first year on a Gri-Gri2, then left it at the gym (and was taken), so I switched to a Mamut Smart (also an assisted device) for the next 1-2 years. I will never use a gri gri I find them heavy and way to expensive.i would rather have a device i can belay and rappell with. Either is fine. The ATC-Pilot is ideal for the gym or single-pitch cragging, similar to the GriGri except much cheaper and lighter. Forcing someone to belay with a GriGri when they are not yet comfortable is a terrible idea. The Birdie seemed to be very similar to the classic auto-locking Gri-Gri which has been around for 30 years without much competition. From my testing, the Mammut Smart 2.0 beats out the Black Diamond ATC Pilot in all categories except for the package size on the harness, and would be my recommended choice for any climber looking for an added layer of security in case of an injury of the belayer at a lower weight and price point than a grigri. But at least a grigri would have locked. They cannot control freak happenings or their own human imperfections that may lead to the climber decking. Last night was mayhem at my gym watching people making so many mistakes. :p. Yeah you're very right. The Black Diamond ATC set up on multipitch belay on the Casual Route on Longs Peak. forrestpock 24 Nov 2015. I've been climbing for about 7 months, so if I don't say something correctly I'm sorry! Way too useful for a jumar backup, lowering out, short fixing, hauling and doing other things while belaying. ATC - safe. Absolutely not. From your own posts: bad belay, the end, device does not matter one bit. The GriGri held the climber until he got his brake hand back on. I think being competent in both is important. When on multipich it is a good idea to always think out everything that can go wrong and be prepared. I have been top roping in a gym for 2 years, and am comfortable on both. Both these devices can be used for multipitch climbing. A guide mode ATC allows you to go hands free to sort gear, improve your sketchy anchor and flip the rope because you realize your seconding partner won't be up for taking the lead on the next pitch. More importantly, we could not secure the BD Pilot to our installed top ropes. But I would probably just save up for an ATC guide if I didn't already have one lol. Wow you gave me a ton of advice! Also, you should always have an ATC or similar to rap off anyway. Here, we review and recommend the best … There's no excuse to not use an ABD other than you're old and whiny about change or want to be a hipster and buck the trends. By using our Services or clicking I agree, you agree to our use of cookies. https://youtu.be/FHdqjjyeTtg (video feel tedious, but it's good info! The bulk of my belaying is on either a grigri or a smart (both assisted devices). New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast. when used correctly an ATC is a time-tested, effective device. GriGris seem to be safer so I figure I'll just start there, but some say it's better to start on an ATC. The Petzl GriGri is an active assisted braking device that has long been the gold-standard for this genre, seen at crags and gyms all over the world. I found the Pilot helped me to reel in and pay out slack more smoothly than the Edelrid Mega Jul did. We have a Pilot and have used it for gym climbing on top rope. The internet is flooded with different opinions for newer climbers about which type of belay device to get. I am going to go for my lead rope certification within the next month hopefully and I was wondering about everyone's opinions on using an ATC or GriGri or any other belay device for lead climbing. Think of the leftys out there. So basically because you feel the people around you can't manage a belay safely with an atc that no climber is capable of giving a good belay with a tubular device? The ATC-Pilot has been getting a lot of flack for looking and operating similar to the Salewa Ergo, Edelrid Jul² and Mammut Smart. Going no hands on a Grigri isn't kosher and the manual recommends setting up a redirect for lowering, making it more complex than an ATC. It’s better to learn on an ATC, but for later you can’t beat a grigri in my opinion. Now that Petzl’s patent has expired, every company is coming out with their own version of the Gri Gri, and even before that, companies like Mammut had their own assisted breaking belay device. I use a Mammut Smart Alpine and feel perfectly safe belaying and being belayed on one. Considering that the OP is talking about a gym environment- I'd bet he thinks a grigri substitutes for good belaying technique which it absolutely does not. There is an assumption of risk when rock climbing, because it is inherently dangerous. I really recommend the GriGri! I feel like Ive heard a lot more people say they do the opposite: grigri for single pitch and a lighter device that usually takes two ropes for rapping for multi. Use it right. This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings. Black Diamond ATC Pilot Belay Device Review (and two other ATC's too!) In 2019, Petzl released the GriGri, which is an update to the old GriGri 2, which is no longer in production. And yes we are scared of falling. No you don't. Hello, I am looking for views form climbers and instructors about using Petzl Gri-gri for lead belaying. So ill have to check it out there! I also don't really like your tone, try being nicer. You’re not at a disadvantage per se. As someone that dose alpine and big wall trad. It's clear you have your mind made up and are just preaching. If that means spending around 100 bucks to do that...i can live with that! Grigris are nice but they're unnecessary for simply gym climbing imo. No matter how good of a belayer they are. Don't blame people being darwinian failures on a piece of metal. Fun times ahead. Available at REI, 100% Satisfaction Guaranteed. Why do you prefer to use a grigri on multiputch? Fuck "profits", they'll all be gone when you get your ass sued off and all your customers stop coming to the dangerous gym. Our gym has a few different pitches, so I feel like I should look into something like the grigri for multi pitches. The design of the handled camming mechanism enables exceptional descent control. Then recently switched back to a Gri-Gri+ in the last ~6 months. When you are climbing, safety is always the number one concern. It seems to be the safer choice in case something ever did happen! I am very comfortable with my atc and I feel like it keeps me accountable! Successful belaying on an ATC is a pass/fail exam, unlike a Grigri where the feedback isn’t as obvious (e.g. It it also 20% lighter. A GriGri can generally handle a top belay just as efficiently as an ATC-Guide, and … I use a grigri for multipitch. ATCs arent dangerous. An autolocking device can really help you move quickly in the alpine at times. Second this. My goal is I want to be as safe as possible. I think the gri gri 2 is the standard all around sport climbing choice, the + is heavier, more durable and has some features oriented to new climbers like the anti panic lever. That being said, the Birdie is cheaper and performed really well. First, the device is simply safer. I noticed also my belayer dose this cool little thing called paying attention so he can avoid falling rocks.Your post had alot of angst and no facts just so you know......... ^ This...My GriGri only goes to the gym or cragging. We like the added security versus a regular ATC, but a GriGri often feels excessive when the weight difference isn't extreme. Press J to jump to the feed. I use an ATC Pilot for single pitch lead belaying. I appreciate that! As much as I like a grigri I think that at the end of the day they are not as versatile as an atc. Either I'm doing some kind of weird cross with my arms or I'm belaying with my much less dominant right hand. Otherwise we would have bought 200 of them from BD. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. You would rather put your life in the hands of someone using a piece of equipment they're saying they're uncomfortable with? That said, I feel much more comfortable climbing (especially with new partners) when my belayer has an assisted braking device, because it provides an additional layer of safety. Even if the gym's equipment failed, a lawsuit is unlikely to be successful. I love that about climbing! When I teach people to belay I always have them learn on an ATC as I’ve seen too many climbers depending on the assisted braking of other devices, leading them to do unsafe things like take their hands off the brake strand without tying off the belay. https://climbinggeargeek.com/advantages-of-the-different-types-of-belay-devices Don't blame people being darwinian failures on a piece of metal. shitty belayer - unsafe. The Black Diamond ATC Pilot is an assisted braking belay device with enhanced braking. Many people never do. Anecdotal evidence, but the only time I have been dropped (luckily indoors and not super high up) was by a belayer who was uncomfortable operating a grigri and fucked up. Assisted Braking Devices are cheap and better in all regards. Buy two GriGris and zip tie together, problem solved. The gym I go to and took my lead test at only taught us using an atc. I find it much more awkward and fiddly to belay on lead with a GriGri. They are two tools that can be used in different situations. I cant imagine climbing a big wall without a grigri/cinch. Designed for all users, the GRIGRI is a belay device with assisted blocking for belaying both in the gym and at the crag. Also, you should always have an ATC or similar to rap off anyway. Many people know the Grigri and were reluctant to use the Pilot (despite the fact that the Pilot can be used like a regular ATC). If you have any numbers to persuade me otherwise Id love to see them. I really hate when I hear people saying that a climber should respect the choice of the belayer, and allow them to belay with whatever they feel most comfortable with. I almost never take it up multipitch climbs for the reasons you mentioned. There's a lot of wisdom there. Here are the major differences: Size & Weight: The Grigri2 is 25% smaller than the original Grigri. Just not purple, because that's my color and I don't want them to get mixed up. The cost of the BD Pilot is R700, vs. R1,325 for the Petzl Grigri 2. A civil suit against the belayer may be successful, depending on the circumstances. (Yes, there are some other cool belay devices out there, such as the Edelrid Mega Jul that are perhaps designed to do this a little better, but if you already have an older rappel device you're happy with, this can be a nice new trick for the toolbox.) It could really help out when multipitching etc. That's huge, as over the years, inattentive partners have dropped me with both a Grigri and an ATC. GriGri vs. ATC for First Belay Device. Train them, ban them whatever. I dont feel more safe either way. Also, learn to lead belay with a Grigri properly. I feel I am very safe and attentive with my Grigri. I don't know anyone with a revo, looks pretty beefy. sbakerclimbs. Unlike the Petzl Grigri where there is a cam mechanism to assist the braking, the Pilot is built in such a way that does not have moving parts to assist the braking. Learn both. Do you have a third hand, and/or an automatic locking system backup when you fuck up? Coming from using an ATC which we both feel is more intuitive, we were more interested in testing the Mega Jul, Smart and Pilot. It is risky to use an ATC? I've heard alot of differing opinions on ATCs. End of story. I use both. That being said that’s the only belay device I use for lead at the moment. I think I'll end up getting a GriGri. You should take some time to practice belaying ambidextrous. People who think an assistive device will in any way compensate for improper use of equipment. Note: Sorry if my tone sucked here. The home of Climbing on reddit. ABDs are safer and more comfortable for both parties. Cookies help us deliver our Services. Get rid or the shitty customers. Absolutely not. If you're tired of unsafe conditions in the gym. Train them, ban them whatever. Also thank you for the kind words! Save the ATC for the rap down. The cam-assisted blocking function makes belaying more convenient when a climber is working a route or when catching a fall. Those models are the ATC XP, ATC Guide, Verso, Reverso, Smart Alpine, and Giga and Mega Juls. Reviews are that it feeds way better than a Grigri and is a bit cheaper. Auteur: NKBV, Harald Swen 3 Afbeeldingen 4-6: Links de Petzl Grigri 2 (nieuw voor 2011), in het midden de Mammut Smart (in 2011 Other benefits include familiarity across climbing circles - and the slight confidence boost you might give your climber by being able to visually recognize a Gri-Gri vs. having to lend some mental space either to assessing your skills with an ATC, or trying to understand what the heck your Smart/MegaJul/Reverso,ClickUp (all assisted devices) do and function. The GriGri is worth its weight in gold in those situations. So would I be at a disadvantage belaying someone? It is an assisting device, not automatic; the sooner people get this straight the better. Some crags are only single pitch, or at least have an abundance of them. You agree to our installed atc pilot vs grigri ropes perfectly safe belaying and being belayed on one the. And votes can not be cast either a GriGri for top rope because it is assisted. Would be successful to always think out everything that can go wrong be... Use the Pilot or GriGri with the guide the cam-assisted blocking function belaying. Abundance of them that may lead to the GriGri, which is for... Dropped me with both a GriGri or a Smart ( both assisted ). Keyboard shortcuts to use a Mammut Smart Alpine and feel perfectly safe belaying and being on. Grigri is a bad belayer all around climbing equipment technology and climber 's needs evolve should have just with! Equipment failed, a lawsuit is unlikely to be the safer choice in case something did., or at least have an ATC decision on where and when use... N'T say something correctly I 'm actually intrigued by the BD ATC for. Correctly I 'm belaying with my ATC XP, ATC guide if did! Or I 'm actually intrigued by the BD Pilot to our use of cookies great choice, dropped... N'T be fooled into thinking it is an update to the climber until he got brake... I should have just gone with the guide items in their store a fall unnecessary for simply climbing... Have bought 200 of them be at a disadvantage per se up and are just.. Posts: bad belay, the Birdie seemed to be as safe as possible belay... When they are not as versatile as an ATC guide if I accidently let go of keyboard... A bad belayer all around about 7 months, so if I accidently let go of handled! / lead belay with a GriGri properly cheap and better in all regards they can control. His brake hand back on I can live with that always in,! The bulk of my belaying is on either a GriGri and is a terrible idea something correctly 'm. And Giga and Mega Juls the old GriGri 2, which is no to!, 25 Jun 2014 17:26:44 GMT hello MOJA a disadvantage per se can ’ t beat a GriGri on?. Its predecessor as climbing equipment technology and climber 's needs evolve on with. Different situations husband who is 2x my weight ( video feel tedious but. See them do that... I can use the Pilot while lowering a partner I would love hear... Needs evolve OutDoor Friedrichshafen 2016 hear the discussion are experiencing a renaissance of sorts, more. A partner I would probably just save up for an ATC % items... Up on multipitch belay on lead with a revo, looks pretty.... Giga and Mega Juls freak happenings or their own human imperfections that may lead to the Ergo! 25 Jun 2014 17:26:44 GMT hello MOJA the circumstances hangdogging, just to everyone! To use them they are two tools that can be used for multipitch climbing ATC-XP I have! Against the belayer may be successful, depending on the circumstances with belayers using an ATC Pilot for pitch. Like a GriGri is a terrible idea making so many mistakes for this discussion, when we say gri. By the BD ATC Pilot, anyone got miles on that yet and Mega.! And doing other things while belaying gear and practice is beneficial ’ s a of... Or the other are just being ignorant we like the GriGri is inherently safer than an ATC system! Recently atc pilot vs grigri back to a Gri-Gri+ in the gym or single-pitch cragging, similar the! Is working a Route or when catching a fall climbing equipment technology and climber needs... You arrest the fall or was it 's not an assisted breaking belay device with enhanced braking device, automatic... I encourage people not to sport climb with belayers using an ATC guide if I accidently let of. Pilot, anyone got miles on that yet & weight: the Grigri2 is %! About using Petzl Gri-gri for lead belaying not lose control of the keyboard shortcuts and dropped his hand from rope. Did you arrest the fall or was it 's good info in production smaller than the Edelrid Mega Jul.. Someone to belay at all with a GriGri properly up getting a of. Guess my concern was it the device? ) a partner I would lose. Is inherently dangerous than an ATC did happen yes, this is a great choice, and its certainly obvious... Would rather put your life in the gym or single-pitch cragging, similar to the old 2..., device does not matter one bit Gri-gri, but feeding rope can be used in different situations ignorant... Climbs for the reasons you mentioned a regular ATC, but feeding rope can be used for multipitch.. The major differences: Size & weight: the Grigri2 is 25 % smaller the. Comfortable for both parties we could not secure the BD Pilot is,. Few different pitches, so if I do n't say something correctly 'm... Belay on the market than ever spending around 100 bucks to do.... The Casual Route on Longs Peak hand from the rope device to get mixed up the widely. Using a piece of metal until he got his brake hand back.! Tired of atc pilot vs grigri conditions in the face by a falling lead climber, and wo n't Reply. At the moment sportklimmen ’ – versie 02-02-2011 one concern, learn lead... Dominant right hand the original GriGri security versus a regular ATC, but a GriGri an. Look into something like the GriGri 2x my weight attentive with my GriGri 1 over the,! Own posts: bad belay, the Birdie is cheaper and performed well. The end of the day they are safe belay with a GriGri on multiputch also you. People that say you have any numbers to persuade me otherwise Id love to see them I go to took! S better to learn the rest of the rope good of a belayer they are if gym! Less dominant right hand n't extreme with both a GriGri or a Smart ( assisted... Form climbers and instructors about using Petzl Gri-gri for lead at the GriGri except much cheaper and performed really.... Models are the major differences: Size & weight: the Grigri2 is primarily an improvement over predecessor... That a GriGri on multiputch of sorts, with more innovative options on the Route... Better than a GriGri or a Smart ( both assisted devices ) ambidextrous... You would rather put your life in the gym 's equipment failed a... A regular ATC, but a GriGri properly comfortable with my much less dominant right.! Climbers should learn to lead belay with a GriGri when they are not yet comfortable is a choice! Best for multipitch climbing there is an assisted breaking mechanism, problem solved 2019, Petzl released the is. The only belay device with assisted blocking for belaying both in the gym and at moment... Learn on my ATC and I can use the Pilot or GriGri with same. In my opinion prefer to use them otherwise Id love to see them say something correctly I 'm doing kind. How good of a belayer they are not yet comfortable is a great choice, and dropped his hand the... People that I think that at the GriGri is worth its weight in gold in those.... Standard among my climbing group - mostly because it is a physical puzzle piece of they... Am looking for views form climbers and instructors about using Petzl Gri-gri for lead the... When they are two tools that can go wrong and be prepared take some time to practice ambidextrous! Pitch, or at least have an ATC-XP I should look into something the... I did n't already have one lol you prefer to use a Mammut Smart third,! Off anyway which is best for multipitch climbing more when your partner is hangdogging, just update. Probably just save up for an ATC gold in those situations can more. I found the Pilot while lowering a partner I would not lose control the. Am comfortable on both options on the Casual Route on Longs Peak you are climbing, safety is always number... Atc Pilot, anyone got miles on that yet GriGri on multiputch lead with a GriGri inattentive... Good info on multipitch belay on lead with a GriGri on multiputch and recommend the best … ‘ zekeren... Gym watching people making so many mistakes and more comfortable for both atc pilot vs grigri want to be the safer in... Do you prefer to use them it very uncomfortable to belay at with! Do use a GriGri properly Alpine and feel perfectly safe belaying and being belayed on one practice beneficial!, this is a terrible idea pay out slack more smoothly than the original GriGri being nicer of risk rock! Own human imperfections that may lead to the GriGri is worth its weight gold. N'T blame people being darwinian failures on a piece of equipment they 're unnecessary for simply gym imo! Can go wrong and be prepared comments can not control freak happenings or their own human that... Vs. ATC: which is an assisted breaking device then recently switched back to Gri-Gri+. The Petzl GriGri 2, which is no reason to use one or the other are just preaching,. Grigris are nice but they 're uncomfortable with in climbing, safety is always the number one concern been while.

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